Bronko Nagurski and Chris Willis' book on the legend
Hailing from Canada, Bronko Nagurski carved his name in football history with raw power and fierce determination. At the University of Minnesota, he dominated both sides of the field, earning All-American honors and solidifying his legend. Joining the Chicago Bears in 1930, he became a symbol of their "Monsters of the Midway" era.
Bronko Nagurski's legendary football story is told by NFL Films' Chris Willis. Nagurski bio.
Standing at 6'2" and 235 lbs, Nagurski was a force to be reckoned with. He excelled as a fullback, powering through defenses with unmatched ferocity. His rushing yards remain impressive even by today's standards, and his blocking skills paved the way for teammates' success. But Nagurski wasn't just an offensive weapon. As a defensive tackle, he was equally imposing, shutting down plays with relentless aggression.
His impact went beyond individual stats. Nagurski helped the Bears win two NFL championships and played a key role in their four World Championship appearances. His influence was so profound that some credit him with inspiring the team's iconic nickname. His career wasn't without interruptions, however. Salary disputes and a successful professional wrestling stint led to temporary retirements, but Nagurski always returned to the gridiron, proving his enduring passion for the game.
By the time he finally hung up his cleats in 1943, Nagurski had cemented his place among the game's greats. He became an inaugural inductee into both the College Football and Pro Football Halls of Fame.
-Transcribed Conversation with [b]Chris Willis: on Bronko Nagursk[/b]
Darin Hayes:
Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes: of pigskindispatch.com. Welcome once again to the Pigpen, your portal to positive football history. And we have a great interview lined up today. We're gonna talk to one of our friends, Chris Willis:, who is the head of the NFL Films Library and an author of multiple books. We've had him on here a bunch of times on the program, talking about some of his other books, the book on Joe Carr and the book on Red Grange. He's helped us out with our football numbers before. And he's got a new book out that we're gonna talk about. And I'll let him introduce it to you here in just a moment as we bring in Chris Willis. Welcome back to the Pigpen.
Chris Willis:
Thanks for having me. It's always a pleasure to be on.
Darin Hayes:
Now, Chris, this is, uh, we were talking a little bit before we came on. This is an extremely busy time of the year for anybody involved in football. But for you particularly, this is, you've got a bunch of things going on. And I don't know if you wanted to say some of those on air to give them a little bit of pub or.
Chris Willis:
Sure. And I mean, if you're a football fan, like I said, you're licking your chops now, you know, college football started this weekend. And like I said, we've been working on Hard Knocks, and we've got one more show and two more shows with Hard Knocks.
Darin Hayes:
It was another outstanding season. You guys hit it out of the park again.
Chris Willis:
And then, you know, the kickoff games, you know, preseason, you know, is wrapping up now. Then we got the kickoff game on September 8th, and then a full week in a football, you know, coming up. So, yeah, so if you're a football fan, you know, it's like I always say, it's good, busy. You know, it's not bad, busy. It's all good, busy, you know, to be involved. So, but now we're, yeah, we're getting close to real games, especially in the NFL. Thanks for watching!
Darin Hayes:
And just when you thought Chris was busy with all that he just mentioned, he's also got a book that just came out. And Chris, if you could give us the title of the book and where folks can get it from, we'll talk about it again later in the program as well.
Chris Willis:
Sure. Yeah, it's a biography. It's a book on Bronko Nagursky, the Bears, the Hall of Fame, and a fullback. So it's called Bronko, the legendary story of the NFL's greatest two-way fullback. And it just was out in the middle of July. So, it's starting to make its rounds. You can get it on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. And then our publisher is Rowan in Littlefield. So if you go on ROWMAN .com, you can pick it up there too. But it was just released last month or so. So.
Darin Hayes:
So yeah, I'm sure your email inbox and telephones are ringing, and everything's extremely busy for you this time of year. So, we really appreciate you coming on and spending a few moments with us to talk about this book.
Chris Willis:
Sure.
Darin Hayes:
Thank you. You know, as one thing I really enjoy about your books and those of the listeners that have read Chris's work is how he goes into the detail in the roots of the subjects that he's talking about. And he does the same in this book and Bronko book, and maybe you could just give us a little bit of background on where Bronko came from I guess first of all let's start off what his, his proper name is his God given name is.
Chris Willis:
Yeah, he was; he was actually born in Canada, just over the Canadian border, you know, in Ontario. So, Bronislaw Nagursky was his full name. But that name was a very difficult to pronounce, you know, as he was growing up, the family early on around, I think it was around five, six years old, he moved from Ontario to International Falls, you know, his father moved the family to International Falls. And so the kids, you know, started playing with him, but they had a hard time pronouncing his name. And so Bronko was a logical sort of Ukrainian nickname that they gave him, and, you know, he actually kept it for the rest of his life. He pretty much went by Bronko. You know, as I said, he sort of stayed in International Falls, even when he became, you know, a great player with the Bears; he became a World Championship wrestler too, in the 30s, he always came back to International Falls and sort of lived pretty much his entire life there, until he passed away in 1990, in that area. So, so that's kind of where he was from, you know, sort of northern Minnesota, you know, up there, you know, near the Canadian border, you know, which was like a sort of tough lifestyle, you know, you know, have like, what, I think Bronko used to say, quote, something like they had, you know, eight months of winter and three months of bad snow or bad sledding, you know, for the rest of the year. So, so he loved it up there, you know, he loved the lake, and he loved being a part of that area, and that sort of, you know, and he got that reputation of being like a pole bunionist, you know, player or personality because of where he was from in International Falls and stuff. So, that's where he sort of got his persona.
Darin Hayes:
Well, it's interesting. You said the Paul Bunyan thing because there's at least one story I've heard about, and I think I've even, uh, said it on, on one of my programs that I, I said, though, I scratched my head. It's a little bit hard to believe. I'm sure there are other ones too about him because he almost is personified as Paul Bunyan, at least in this one story of how he and his, uh, coach at Minnesota, Doc Spears, met now you say a much different way, which I think sounds more like that's probably the truth. Uh, but, uh, have you heard some of these tales?
Chris Willis:
Yeah. I mean, the tale of Spears sort of driving through that area and seeing Bronko plowing the farm field with no horse and then asking for directions and lifting the plow. But that was definitely a story. I mean, I wrote about that in the book where, because of several interviews, Nagersky says, yeah, that was sort of made up, and it was sort of a good banquet story. I mean, he would go with it a little bit and get the chuckle and stuff. But definitely, like I said, part of that sort of Paul Bunyan -esque sort of persona that he got the reputation of.
Darin Hayes:
Yeah, that was the only thing missing from that story. It was the giant blue ox in the back, you know, I think. So, let's talk a little bit more about him growing up at International Falls from the book because I think it really establishes who Bronko is. And, you know, the family sort of goes through some turmoil and some life-changing moments when he's a child in International Falls. Maybe you could describe that a little bit.
Chris Willis:
Yeah, I mean, obviously, this is, you know, early 1900s. So you know, you know, especially in that area, you know, they had some fires, like his father, you know, started out working in the mills, there's some, you know, paper mills and some, you know, mills there in the area, and they had some fires. And so he had to kind of adjust. And then when they moved to International Falls, you know, he sort of started his own business, you know, he had a sort of like a grocery store there that became, you know, had a, you know, housing and stuff like that. So, it was a little bit of a struggle. I mean, I mean, he was never homeless, but yeah, you know, like I said, but that's all he knew, you know, he learned hard work from his dad, you know, at the store, there are several quotes from Nagurski that I found, you know, it's like, you know, he would, you know, he would go to school and then come back and work at the store, he'd make deliveries and the family wagon, you know, you know, you know, to whoever needs it, whether it was food or grain, you know, sugar or whatever, you know, that they had, and things like that. So it was, it was definitely, you know, a country as sort of lifestyle that sort of, you know, that they just made the best of what they did, you know, he had a brother and two other sisters, you know, you know, that he helped take care of too, you know, so he. So he learned, as I said, I think the most important thing he's learned sort of how to how to be a hard worker, and, especially the times on the farm and, and in the mills and things like that, he even did something like he built his body up to be, you know, I mean, he was six to, you know, 235 pounds, like just this chiseled, you know, you know, sort of greed God, you know, you know, and that's how you know, as athlete stuff. So, all that came from this sort of hard-working background with his family.
Darin Hayes:
OK. Yeah, I got that. I mean, if there's an underlying theme to the whole book, it's, you know, the Nagurski family and Bronko emulating that for his whole life. You know, like you said, that hard work and putting in all the effort to get the job done and doing a little bit more. It shows in his football prowess and wrestling, as well, as you define well in the book. It's some great examples of that. So, there are some things I look forward to for the listeners when they pick up the book to read. Now he, you have him playing high school a little bit in international falls. And then, his senior season, he's in high school. He makes a little bit of a change to who he's playing for.
Chris Willis:
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's one of those sorts of, you know, era things, you know, those sort of vagabond type of things, like they weren't quite as many, you know, hardcore rules, although the Minneapolis high school athletics was, was there or so. But International Falls was definitely a super small town. So they didn't have a lot of boys playing on the team. So they weren't that competitive. They actually didn't really win football games when Bronko was there for a couple of years. And then, before his senior year, there was a team. Most of the teams were like, you know, an hour away because they're so spread out. It was Bemidji was a very good football team. The year before Bronko's junior year, I think they beat international falls like 48 to nothing. Although they could see that Bronko might have been the best player on the field, he just didn't have anything surrounding it, you know. So they sort of kind of recruited was like, hey, if you come to play for us, you could play on the football team and the basketball team. And you'll get, you know, a little more publicity, and you might be able to go play in college, you know, the coach there, you know, kind of promised him that if you want to go play in college, I might be able to get you into college. So he, he asked his parents, and so since his parents weren't gonna, you know, have to pay for anything, he would stay there, he actually, they were gonna get him a job, and he was actually gonna live in the janitor's room, there was gonna be a cat for him in the janitor's room. So he so he goes down there. But International Falls, the athletic director and head coach, really disliked it. So, they actually asked the athletic association to look into this. And it turned out that because he was a transfer, he would actually have to sit out a semester. You know, he did not live in Bemidji. So it turns out that during his senior year, he still went because he said they still needed him for basketball. But all he did was practice, and he did not play in the games. So he didn't actually play in any varsity games during his senior year, and then he ended up playing basketball season; he's graduated from Bemiji, not International Falls High School. So he spent one year there. And then, you know, he sort of graduated, and then he came back to International Falls.
Darin Hayes:
Yeah, I thought that was an interesting story, but he didn't play, as you said, he practiced, and you pointed out in your story that some of the things that he, the benefits he got of practicing with a bigger school that was a little bit more established, a coach was a little bit, had a little bit more wherewithal, probably a little bit better program that he learned a lot of things that he probably wouldn't have learned if he stayed at the international falls teams. Is that a true statement?
Chris Willis:
Yeah, I think so. I mean, the media was one of the better programs, especially in that area in the state of Minnesota. So he, he had one quote that I found in one of his interviews, like he mentioned, Oh, at that point, I thought I could play in college because I was, I was just as good as some of the players are even better than the players that were on the team. I just didn't get to play, you know, in the games. And so they gave him confidence. Hey, if I do go, you know, to God's, and of course, yeah, he went to the University of Minnesota. He thought he could be competitive and play because of the fall that he spent practicing against a very good team that had some pretty quality players.
Darin Hayes:
Yeah, so OK, so you stayed somewhat local and went to the University of Minnesota place for Doc Spears, as we alluded to earlier. And you, by the way, I think you did a magnificent job. I learned a lot about Doc Spears because, just like you did with Bronko, you went back and told the backstory of Doc Spears, where he grew up, and everything. And I'll let the listeners get a copy of the book and do that. We won't spoil it. But it's a fantastic biography of Doc Spears, too. I just wanted to point out.
Chris Willis:
Yeah, I mean, he's an interesting guy, you know, you played a little pro football too, you know, with the Campbell, like he was a very good pro player before the NFL got established. So, yeah, so that was Yeah, so there's a lot of his backstory, you know, and then obviously coach Bronko, you know, at the University of Minnesota.
Darin Hayes:
Yeah, it's in Minnesota; it's really interesting. I didn't realize that this was an issue until you pointed it out in a book. It's something I learned from the book that, you know, he was, uh, you know, you're the title, you have, you know, being a two-way player at fullback. Well, his problem or not a problem, I guess it's a good problem to have because he was so good at a couple of different positions on offense in college that Doc Spears had a decision to make, and maybe if you could chat a little bit about that.
Chris Willis:
Yeah, he was, I mean, as big as he was, you think, oh, he's going to be a line, but he was so athletic, and he was so, not only was he big and strong, but he was so athletic and so gifted, you know, you know, you know, catching the ball, running the ball. Like, you know, he started out really as an end, you know, in his early varsity career, and then he played tackle, and then he has moved the fullback, you know, so he could play a variety of positions, you know, although he was 6 '2", you know, 225, maybe at the time. He was very athletic and very gifted. You know, with the way he could run, you know, he was just not a big lumbering guy. So, so Doc had a little bit, you know, he, pretty much up to, you know, I think his sophomore year, Bronko, like he had Herb Josting there, who was a very good fullback who did play the NFL. So, he was a senior. So he actually got a lot of the playing time early, and that's why he needed to find a different position. He played him an end, played him a tackle, but once Josting left, you know, Bronko was the logical choice to play fullback, and, you know, he didn't look back from there. He was one of the best fullbacks in the country and, obviously, in the NFL. So, but very versatile, you know, Bronko, you could have played, you know, tackle or end in the NFL too and probably would have been, you know, all pro.
Darin Hayes:
Yeah, it's extremely something, like I said. It's something I wasn't aware of in college, and he excelled at both. So, you know, the other thing I thought was really interesting that sort of along that same line is his senior year, you know, there's maybe you could just talk about he played one of those positions a little bit more than the other. And what happened with the All-American honors?
Chris Willis:
Yeah, I mean, his senior year, he pretty much is starting full back. But because the most important games were the conference games, it was a West Conference, but it was what would be the Big 10. So, so early on, Doc had a little bit of injuries and some inexperience on the line. So he actually played Bronko in some of those nonconference games at tackle, but not a lot. He did not play tackle very much. But once the conference game started, he back at fullback, he played fullback, you know, it was great at fullback. And so, most of the newspapers and immediate outlets at the time were putting Bronko at fullback as an all-American. But there were a few, and I believe New York's son was the big one who actually put him at tackle. So he actually, although he did not play tackle very much during the season, they're like, he was so good, let's name him All-American as a tackle. So he actually played, and he was named for two different positions in one season. So very unique, even at that time.
Darin Hayes:
Yeah, that's really unique. And that just tells you the talent level that the man had, you know, at both positions to be that well respected across the country. So very interesting indeed. OK, so what happened? He plays in his final game, which is sort of a meeting of different things in his life. It's sort of a pinnacle moment that the final game, I believe it was against Wisconsin, if I'm not mistaken, at when he played at Minnesota. And he had, you know, some things going on. Maybe you could just talk about that a bit.
Chris Willis:
Uh, you're talking about plane-wise or, well, his.
Darin Hayes:
Uh, I believe that was the only game his parents saw or the first game his parents played.
Chris Willis:
what was the game before? OK, OK, I'm sorry. Yeah, his senior year. He played. Minnesota played Michigan, and his parents had never seen them play. And it was. So they came down from international fall, the whole family, and they saw him play against Michigan. He ended up losing, you know, a tough game. So Bronko wasn't in a great mood. But because the whole town wasn't just a family. It was like, I think, well over 200 people from International Falls came down to see this game because it was going to be his last home game. And so they had a banquet at the local hotel there. And one of his sisters brought a friend who was actually three years younger than her, you know, but they were pretty good friends. It turns out to be Eileen Cain, who ends up being the woman who marries Bronko, the girl. So that's where they first meet. And Bronko, you know, you know, is infatuated with her. And then obviously, you know, over the next, you know, five or six years, you know, they act across paths because of the international falls, and they end up getting married. So. So that's, yeah, a very fun weekend for him, even though he lost his loss. And then the following week against Wisconsin, like you mentioned, that was his last game, and he wasn't going to lose that game. And so he went out, and then he actually single-handedly helped defeat, you know, the Badgers, and he went out sort of as a winner in his last game. So, but that sort of homecoming sort of family thing, it definitely at the University of Minnesota was a huge weekend for him.
Darin Hayes:
Yeah, that has a great story, you know, the irony of, you know, the sour defeat and, you know, it sounded like he took it hard, but then, you know, seeing his family and friends there to support him and then meeting his future wife. That's a spectacular ending to what started off not so good for him earlier in the day. So tremendous. So, how did it happen with Bronko after he graduated from Minnesota?
Chris Willis:
Well, he didn't actually graduate. So, he was still taking classes. But at the end of his senior season, he actually was invited to play in a prestigious all-star game that was just getting started on the West Coast. It's the old east-west shrine game that I believe was still around; you know, it bounced around on the West Coast and was mainly played in San Francisco. Well, at the time, this was starting to become one of the better, more key games, especially football games, so they invited seniors to play. And he made the Eastern team to play in that game, you know, and then Bob Tanner was another teammate of his, you know, also played in that game. So, so this is where he sort of gets the, you know, the itch to play pro ball, you know, he's like, OK, I think I can compete, I think, you know, I think I can play. So the east team actually practices for two or three days in Chicago first, before they go out to San Francisco, you know, well, at this time, this is January or end of December 1929. Well, of course, this is George Halas' territory. So Hallis, you know, lights that these this team are practicing there. So he gets, you know, the inside scoop, and he goes and sees the team practices. Obviously, he's very infatuated with Bronko, his running style, and his physicality. And he's like, so he talks to them, say, hey, if you're willing to play, like when you get back from the all-star game, let's talk and, you know, we'll talk salary or, you know, because I want you for the bears. So, you know, Bronkos intrigued, like, OK, you know, you know, I think there's a few other teams that are, you know, writing to them. But so he goes out and plays in San Francisco, and it turns out to be a really good game for him. He's probably the best player in the field, you know, even with Dutch Clark. Dutch Clark also played in that same game. So, so then when he comes back, obviously, you know, Hallis makes the big push. And, you know, Nagurski, you know, likes what he sees. And he ends up signing with the Bears.
Darin Hayes:
Yeah, interesting. You mentioned Dutch Clark; of course, if you look on Amazon and your publisher, you have a book out on Dutch Clark as well that you wrote a few years back. So just want to mention that, which is also very interesting. OK, so he eventually signs on with Halas and plays in a couple of really interesting games during his career. And maybe if you could just highlight a couple of those that, you know, I know we've talked about, but they're so interesting. He's an integral part of them.
Chris Willis:
Yeah, I mean, he's right at that pivotal point where, you know, the NFL, although it's the depression, the 1930s, his rookie year, you know, the NFL is starting to grow, they're starting to think, you know, we need to be in the big cities, and we need to be thinking as a business. So he comes along at the right time when the NFL is sort of on the rise. And some of these games are very important, you know, and even now, you know, you know, you know, 95 years late, like, these are some of the most important games in the NFL history. The first one was mainly in 1932 when the Bears and the Spartans tied. The Port Spartans are now the Detroit Lions, but they were a small-town team in Ohio at the time, and they tied for the title, or they tied for first place, but there's, you know, there's no championship game in the NFL, you know, it's a team with the best record. So they decide to play a playoff game, but then there's a snowstorm in Chicago the week of the game. And it's just a massive snowstorm. So they move the game indoors to Chicago Stadium, but it's a small field, you know, so Bronko plays, he actually throws the only touchdown, he throws a touchdown pass to Red Grange for the only touchdown, and the Bears win nine to nothing. But it opened the eyes of the NFL like, hey, we need to have hash marks, we need to throw from anywhere behind the line of scrimmage, which you had to be five yards behind the line of scrimmage; it was a rule at the time college football made these rules. So they're like, no, let's separate from college football. So Bronko was part of that game, and that sort of separated, and then they split the NFL into two divisions and created the NFL championship game, kind of like the World Series with the American and National League in 1933. So, the Bears win the Western division in that first championship season, and they play the Giants in Wrigley Field, and Bronko has another great game. He throws two jump pass touchdowns, including the game-winner in the last couple of minutes, and they win 23 -21. So, like I said, and then the next year, in 1934, they won the division again, they played in New York, and this was the famous sneaker game. He actually plays really well, but you know, the Giants put the sneakers on in the second half, and they actually won. So there's three consecutive years he plays in, like you said, three of the most important, uh, you know, games in the NFL history, the indoor game, the first NFL championship game, and then the sneaker game, uh, all in a row. And you know, so he's, uh, and there's more of that in the book, you know, but you know, these sorts of games and what went on and stuff. So, he definitely was a big part of the early history of the NFL.
Darin Hayes:
Yeah, and well, the first and the last of those teams you talked about had quite a bit of controversy surrounding him, too, where the team on the losing end wasn't so happy about a few things. But can you cover those in the book? And that's an interesting story, which is all to themselves. But he thought he ended up only playing had a short NFL career due to some circumstances that he had another career move. And maybe you could speak about that just a bit.
Chris Willis:
Sure. You know, I mean, he actually did play eight years or the first eight years of his career. So, it is actually a decent-sized career at the time. But in 1937, I mean, he was still playing really well in the NFL, but he had picked up professional wrestling a couple of years earlier. And, you know, although he had not known quite much about wrestling, but had a name, you know, he had the physicality, you know, he's a big guy that fit wrestling. And he didn't necessarily have the best, you know, the greatest personality, you know, he was a quiet guy and stuff. So maybe the flair of it, you know, he had to be taught a little bit more. But he became a very good championship wrestler, a caliber wrestler. He was making more money wrestling than he did with the Bears. You know, obviously, as I said, this was still the depression, and the house is still trying to manage, you know, the team, keep this team together, and try to pay him as much as he could. However, he was making more money than by 1937, the spring of 37. He's sort of at the top of the list of challengers for the heavyweight, you know, championship in wrestling. And he wins it in the summer of 37. And then if you're the if you're the actually the world championship wrestler of the world, you have a commitment to a schedule. So it's very unique. And like I said, the book goes into detail about this; I call it the double duty where the spring and summer he's wrestling all over the place, you know, you know, two or three times a week, he's defending this title, he's making, you know, a decent amount of money more than you would, you know, with the Bears, you know, like, you know, two or three times more than he would for the Bears. So he's keeping on the schedule. But, you know, his wrestling manager knew he wanted to play football in 37. So, in the fall of 37, he does something that I think is just so incredible. He's wrestling, sometimes during the week, and then he's playing football on Sundays. You know, he did that early in the season. And then he kind of scaled-down, you know, at the end of October or November, and then he just played football because that was the meat of the NFL schedule, and he housed one of the folks on football. But he's doing this double duty. And like I said, there were some times where he would wrestle, you know, on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, and travel back to Chicago on Saturday, and they play on Sunday, and then be back out on the road wrestling, you know, and so just a tremendous athletic event to be able to do both. And then unfortunately, as I said, after the 37 seasons, he decides, like, if the house can't meet his salary demands, which wasn't very much, I think he's making like, he's back up to 5000 a year, and he just wanted six or 7000. And house wanted to stay at, and he's just so I'm gonna go wrestle, and then he ended up his first retirement, he did come back in 1943 when the war was going on, but he had missed six years, and he just played tackle. He had some injuries, but he did help the Bears win a title in 43. During the war, but so those first eight years, and then that was his ninth year in 1943. But like I said, that 37 season was just a tremendous achievement.
Darin Hayes:
Those are some pretty demanding jobs when you're moonlighting as a football player, especially during the rough-and-tumble era that he played in. And you're also doing some pro wrestling, which is pretty physically grueling, too. And you're doing those multiple evenings a week. And wow, that's a pretty tremendous athlete. Did he suffer any injuries during that earlier time? I know you said in 43; he did when he came back.
Chris Willis:
Yeah, no, I mean, he had, I think in 35, a back injury that kept him out a lot. Like he had, obviously, when you're playing football and you're playing wrestling, you're going to come across things. And, and it did affect him a little bit later with some arthritis and some joint injuries, you know, later in his life. But I think it was more like that: just wear and tear your professional athlete, you're doing football, and you're doing wrestling, and you're going to have some bumps and bruises along the way.
Darin Hayes:
That's amazing to have the fortitude to be able to do that. I just can't imagine that. That's pretty tremendous. Well, Chris, we appreciate you coming on here and talking about Bronko. And maybe if you could again, maybe if you want to share some of your social media and again, let us know where folks can get the book and the title of the book again.
Chris Willis:
Sure. Yeah. I mean, it's Bronko, the legendary story of the NFL's greatest two-way fullback. You can get it on Amazon and Barnes and Noble, like I said, where Rowan and Littlefield are the publishers, so you can go to Rowan.com and pick it up there, too. And there are reviews and features on the publisher's website. So, if you want to check out a little bit more about the book, it's there. So, like I said, it's an entertaining story about a guy who, you know, like I said, has a big personality and a tremendous athletic career.
Darin Hayes:
Yeah. Folks, it is a fantastic book. Make sure you get a copy of it. And did you want to share your social media as well?
Chris Willis:
Yeah, it's CDWillis83 on Twitter, so there's more stuff on Bronko, you know, that post, and a lot about early NFL history, too. So
Darin Hayes:
Well, Chris Willis:, we appreciate you and appreciate everything you're doing during your day job too, as well as what you're doing here with these fantastic books and we're hoping you're going to write some more about this great era because you were, you have some great ones out so far. So folks, make sure you go to Amazon and just look up Chris Willis:'s name and you'll see the big rundown of all these great historical football books.
Chris Willis:
Oh, no, I appreciate it, Darin. And it's always nice to be on the show and talk a little football history.
Transcribed by Notta.AI
Bronko Nagurski's legendary football story is told by NFL Films' Chris Willis. Nagurski bio.
Standing at 6'2" and 235 lbs, Nagurski was a force to be reckoned with. He excelled as a fullback, powering through defenses with unmatched ferocity. His rushing yards remain impressive even by today's standards, and his blocking skills paved the way for teammates' success. But Nagurski wasn't just an offensive weapon. As a defensive tackle, he was equally imposing, shutting down plays with relentless aggression.
His impact went beyond individual stats. Nagurski helped the Bears win two NFL championships and played a key role in their four World Championship appearances. His influence was so profound that some credit him with inspiring the team's iconic nickname. His career wasn't without interruptions, however. Salary disputes and a successful professional wrestling stint led to temporary retirements, but Nagurski always returned to the gridiron, proving his enduring passion for the game.
By the time he finally hung up his cleats in 1943, Nagurski had cemented his place among the game's greats. He became an inaugural inductee into both the College Football and Pro Football Halls of Fame.
-Transcribed Conversation with [b]Chris Willis: on Bronko Nagursk[/b]
Darin Hayes:
Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes: of pigskindispatch.com. Welcome once again to the Pigpen, your portal to positive football history. And we have a great interview lined up today. We're gonna talk to one of our friends, Chris Willis:, who is the head of the NFL Films Library and an author of multiple books. We've had him on here a bunch of times on the program, talking about some of his other books, the book on Joe Carr and the book on Red Grange. He's helped us out with our football numbers before. And he's got a new book out that we're gonna talk about. And I'll let him introduce it to you here in just a moment as we bring in Chris Willis. Welcome back to the Pigpen.
Chris Willis:
Thanks for having me. It's always a pleasure to be on.
Darin Hayes:
Now, Chris, this is, uh, we were talking a little bit before we came on. This is an extremely busy time of the year for anybody involved in football. But for you particularly, this is, you've got a bunch of things going on. And I don't know if you wanted to say some of those on air to give them a little bit of pub or.
Chris Willis:
Sure. And I mean, if you're a football fan, like I said, you're licking your chops now, you know, college football started this weekend. And like I said, we've been working on Hard Knocks, and we've got one more show and two more shows with Hard Knocks.
Darin Hayes:
It was another outstanding season. You guys hit it out of the park again.
Chris Willis:
And then, you know, the kickoff games, you know, preseason, you know, is wrapping up now. Then we got the kickoff game on September 8th, and then a full week in a football, you know, coming up. So, yeah, so if you're a football fan, you know, it's like I always say, it's good, busy. You know, it's not bad, busy. It's all good, busy, you know, to be involved. So, but now we're, yeah, we're getting close to real games, especially in the NFL. Thanks for watching!
Darin Hayes:
And just when you thought Chris was busy with all that he just mentioned, he's also got a book that just came out. And Chris, if you could give us the title of the book and where folks can get it from, we'll talk about it again later in the program as well.
Chris Willis:
Sure. Yeah, it's a biography. It's a book on Bronko Nagursky, the Bears, the Hall of Fame, and a fullback. So it's called Bronko, the legendary story of the NFL's greatest two-way fullback. And it just was out in the middle of July. So, it's starting to make its rounds. You can get it on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. And then our publisher is Rowan in Littlefield. So if you go on ROWMAN .com, you can pick it up there too. But it was just released last month or so. So.
Darin Hayes:
So yeah, I'm sure your email inbox and telephones are ringing, and everything's extremely busy for you this time of year. So, we really appreciate you coming on and spending a few moments with us to talk about this book.
Chris Willis:
Sure.
Darin Hayes:
Thank you. You know, as one thing I really enjoy about your books and those of the listeners that have read Chris's work is how he goes into the detail in the roots of the subjects that he's talking about. And he does the same in this book and Bronko book, and maybe you could just give us a little bit of background on where Bronko came from I guess first of all let's start off what his, his proper name is his God given name is.
Chris Willis:
Yeah, he was; he was actually born in Canada, just over the Canadian border, you know, in Ontario. So, Bronislaw Nagursky was his full name. But that name was a very difficult to pronounce, you know, as he was growing up, the family early on around, I think it was around five, six years old, he moved from Ontario to International Falls, you know, his father moved the family to International Falls. And so the kids, you know, started playing with him, but they had a hard time pronouncing his name. And so Bronko was a logical sort of Ukrainian nickname that they gave him, and, you know, he actually kept it for the rest of his life. He pretty much went by Bronko. You know, as I said, he sort of stayed in International Falls, even when he became, you know, a great player with the Bears; he became a World Championship wrestler too, in the 30s, he always came back to International Falls and sort of lived pretty much his entire life there, until he passed away in 1990, in that area. So, so that's kind of where he was from, you know, sort of northern Minnesota, you know, up there, you know, near the Canadian border, you know, which was like a sort of tough lifestyle, you know, you know, have like, what, I think Bronko used to say, quote, something like they had, you know, eight months of winter and three months of bad snow or bad sledding, you know, for the rest of the year. So, so he loved it up there, you know, he loved the lake, and he loved being a part of that area, and that sort of, you know, and he got that reputation of being like a pole bunionist, you know, player or personality because of where he was from in International Falls and stuff. So, that's where he sort of got his persona.
Darin Hayes:
Well, it's interesting. You said the Paul Bunyan thing because there's at least one story I've heard about, and I think I've even, uh, said it on, on one of my programs that I, I said, though, I scratched my head. It's a little bit hard to believe. I'm sure there are other ones too about him because he almost is personified as Paul Bunyan, at least in this one story of how he and his, uh, coach at Minnesota, Doc Spears, met now you say a much different way, which I think sounds more like that's probably the truth. Uh, but, uh, have you heard some of these tales?
Chris Willis:
Yeah. I mean, the tale of Spears sort of driving through that area and seeing Bronko plowing the farm field with no horse and then asking for directions and lifting the plow. But that was definitely a story. I mean, I wrote about that in the book where, because of several interviews, Nagersky says, yeah, that was sort of made up, and it was sort of a good banquet story. I mean, he would go with it a little bit and get the chuckle and stuff. But definitely, like I said, part of that sort of Paul Bunyan -esque sort of persona that he got the reputation of.
Darin Hayes:
Yeah, that was the only thing missing from that story. It was the giant blue ox in the back, you know, I think. So, let's talk a little bit more about him growing up at International Falls from the book because I think it really establishes who Bronko is. And, you know, the family sort of goes through some turmoil and some life-changing moments when he's a child in International Falls. Maybe you could describe that a little bit.
Chris Willis:
Yeah, I mean, obviously, this is, you know, early 1900s. So you know, you know, especially in that area, you know, they had some fires, like his father, you know, started out working in the mills, there's some, you know, paper mills and some, you know, mills there in the area, and they had some fires. And so he had to kind of adjust. And then when they moved to International Falls, you know, he sort of started his own business, you know, he had a sort of like a grocery store there that became, you know, had a, you know, housing and stuff like that. So, it was a little bit of a struggle. I mean, I mean, he was never homeless, but yeah, you know, like I said, but that's all he knew, you know, he learned hard work from his dad, you know, at the store, there are several quotes from Nagurski that I found, you know, it's like, you know, he would, you know, he would go to school and then come back and work at the store, he'd make deliveries and the family wagon, you know, you know, you know, to whoever needs it, whether it was food or grain, you know, sugar or whatever, you know, that they had, and things like that. So it was, it was definitely, you know, a country as sort of lifestyle that sort of, you know, that they just made the best of what they did, you know, he had a brother and two other sisters, you know, you know, that he helped take care of too, you know, so he. So he learned, as I said, I think the most important thing he's learned sort of how to how to be a hard worker, and, especially the times on the farm and, and in the mills and things like that, he even did something like he built his body up to be, you know, I mean, he was six to, you know, 235 pounds, like just this chiseled, you know, you know, sort of greed God, you know, you know, and that's how you know, as athlete stuff. So, all that came from this sort of hard-working background with his family.
Darin Hayes:
OK. Yeah, I got that. I mean, if there's an underlying theme to the whole book, it's, you know, the Nagurski family and Bronko emulating that for his whole life. You know, like you said, that hard work and putting in all the effort to get the job done and doing a little bit more. It shows in his football prowess and wrestling, as well, as you define well in the book. It's some great examples of that. So, there are some things I look forward to for the listeners when they pick up the book to read. Now he, you have him playing high school a little bit in international falls. And then, his senior season, he's in high school. He makes a little bit of a change to who he's playing for.
Chris Willis:
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's one of those sorts of, you know, era things, you know, those sort of vagabond type of things, like they weren't quite as many, you know, hardcore rules, although the Minneapolis high school athletics was, was there or so. But International Falls was definitely a super small town. So they didn't have a lot of boys playing on the team. So they weren't that competitive. They actually didn't really win football games when Bronko was there for a couple of years. And then, before his senior year, there was a team. Most of the teams were like, you know, an hour away because they're so spread out. It was Bemidji was a very good football team. The year before Bronko's junior year, I think they beat international falls like 48 to nothing. Although they could see that Bronko might have been the best player on the field, he just didn't have anything surrounding it, you know. So they sort of kind of recruited was like, hey, if you come to play for us, you could play on the football team and the basketball team. And you'll get, you know, a little more publicity, and you might be able to go play in college, you know, the coach there, you know, kind of promised him that if you want to go play in college, I might be able to get you into college. So he, he asked his parents, and so since his parents weren't gonna, you know, have to pay for anything, he would stay there, he actually, they were gonna get him a job, and he was actually gonna live in the janitor's room, there was gonna be a cat for him in the janitor's room. So he so he goes down there. But International Falls, the athletic director and head coach, really disliked it. So, they actually asked the athletic association to look into this. And it turned out that because he was a transfer, he would actually have to sit out a semester. You know, he did not live in Bemidji. So it turns out that during his senior year, he still went because he said they still needed him for basketball. But all he did was practice, and he did not play in the games. So he didn't actually play in any varsity games during his senior year, and then he ended up playing basketball season; he's graduated from Bemiji, not International Falls High School. So he spent one year there. And then, you know, he sort of graduated, and then he came back to International Falls.
Darin Hayes:
Yeah, I thought that was an interesting story, but he didn't play, as you said, he practiced, and you pointed out in your story that some of the things that he, the benefits he got of practicing with a bigger school that was a little bit more established, a coach was a little bit, had a little bit more wherewithal, probably a little bit better program that he learned a lot of things that he probably wouldn't have learned if he stayed at the international falls teams. Is that a true statement?
Chris Willis:
Yeah, I think so. I mean, the media was one of the better programs, especially in that area in the state of Minnesota. So he, he had one quote that I found in one of his interviews, like he mentioned, Oh, at that point, I thought I could play in college because I was, I was just as good as some of the players are even better than the players that were on the team. I just didn't get to play, you know, in the games. And so they gave him confidence. Hey, if I do go, you know, to God's, and of course, yeah, he went to the University of Minnesota. He thought he could be competitive and play because of the fall that he spent practicing against a very good team that had some pretty quality players.
Darin Hayes:
Yeah, so OK, so you stayed somewhat local and went to the University of Minnesota place for Doc Spears, as we alluded to earlier. And you, by the way, I think you did a magnificent job. I learned a lot about Doc Spears because, just like you did with Bronko, you went back and told the backstory of Doc Spears, where he grew up, and everything. And I'll let the listeners get a copy of the book and do that. We won't spoil it. But it's a fantastic biography of Doc Spears, too. I just wanted to point out.
Chris Willis:
Yeah, I mean, he's an interesting guy, you know, you played a little pro football too, you know, with the Campbell, like he was a very good pro player before the NFL got established. So, yeah, so that was Yeah, so there's a lot of his backstory, you know, and then obviously coach Bronko, you know, at the University of Minnesota.
Darin Hayes:
Yeah, it's in Minnesota; it's really interesting. I didn't realize that this was an issue until you pointed it out in a book. It's something I learned from the book that, you know, he was, uh, you know, you're the title, you have, you know, being a two-way player at fullback. Well, his problem or not a problem, I guess it's a good problem to have because he was so good at a couple of different positions on offense in college that Doc Spears had a decision to make, and maybe if you could chat a little bit about that.
Chris Willis:
Yeah, he was, I mean, as big as he was, you think, oh, he's going to be a line, but he was so athletic, and he was so, not only was he big and strong, but he was so athletic and so gifted, you know, you know, you know, catching the ball, running the ball. Like, you know, he started out really as an end, you know, in his early varsity career, and then he played tackle, and then he has moved the fullback, you know, so he could play a variety of positions, you know, although he was 6 '2", you know, 225, maybe at the time. He was very athletic and very gifted. You know, with the way he could run, you know, he was just not a big lumbering guy. So, so Doc had a little bit, you know, he, pretty much up to, you know, I think his sophomore year, Bronko, like he had Herb Josting there, who was a very good fullback who did play the NFL. So, he was a senior. So he actually got a lot of the playing time early, and that's why he needed to find a different position. He played him an end, played him a tackle, but once Josting left, you know, Bronko was the logical choice to play fullback, and, you know, he didn't look back from there. He was one of the best fullbacks in the country and, obviously, in the NFL. So, but very versatile, you know, Bronko, you could have played, you know, tackle or end in the NFL too and probably would have been, you know, all pro.
Darin Hayes:
Yeah, it's extremely something, like I said. It's something I wasn't aware of in college, and he excelled at both. So, you know, the other thing I thought was really interesting that sort of along that same line is his senior year, you know, there's maybe you could just talk about he played one of those positions a little bit more than the other. And what happened with the All-American honors?
Chris Willis:
Yeah, I mean, his senior year, he pretty much is starting full back. But because the most important games were the conference games, it was a West Conference, but it was what would be the Big 10. So, so early on, Doc had a little bit of injuries and some inexperience on the line. So he actually played Bronko in some of those nonconference games at tackle, but not a lot. He did not play tackle very much. But once the conference game started, he back at fullback, he played fullback, you know, it was great at fullback. And so, most of the newspapers and immediate outlets at the time were putting Bronko at fullback as an all-American. But there were a few, and I believe New York's son was the big one who actually put him at tackle. So he actually, although he did not play tackle very much during the season, they're like, he was so good, let's name him All-American as a tackle. So he actually played, and he was named for two different positions in one season. So very unique, even at that time.
Darin Hayes:
Yeah, that's really unique. And that just tells you the talent level that the man had, you know, at both positions to be that well respected across the country. So very interesting indeed. OK, so what happened? He plays in his final game, which is sort of a meeting of different things in his life. It's sort of a pinnacle moment that the final game, I believe it was against Wisconsin, if I'm not mistaken, at when he played at Minnesota. And he had, you know, some things going on. Maybe you could just talk about that a bit.
Chris Willis:
Uh, you're talking about plane-wise or, well, his.
Darin Hayes:
Uh, I believe that was the only game his parents saw or the first game his parents played.
Chris Willis:
what was the game before? OK, OK, I'm sorry. Yeah, his senior year. He played. Minnesota played Michigan, and his parents had never seen them play. And it was. So they came down from international fall, the whole family, and they saw him play against Michigan. He ended up losing, you know, a tough game. So Bronko wasn't in a great mood. But because the whole town wasn't just a family. It was like, I think, well over 200 people from International Falls came down to see this game because it was going to be his last home game. And so they had a banquet at the local hotel there. And one of his sisters brought a friend who was actually three years younger than her, you know, but they were pretty good friends. It turns out to be Eileen Cain, who ends up being the woman who marries Bronko, the girl. So that's where they first meet. And Bronko, you know, you know, is infatuated with her. And then obviously, you know, over the next, you know, five or six years, you know, they act across paths because of the international falls, and they end up getting married. So. So that's, yeah, a very fun weekend for him, even though he lost his loss. And then the following week against Wisconsin, like you mentioned, that was his last game, and he wasn't going to lose that game. And so he went out, and then he actually single-handedly helped defeat, you know, the Badgers, and he went out sort of as a winner in his last game. So, but that sort of homecoming sort of family thing, it definitely at the University of Minnesota was a huge weekend for him.
Darin Hayes:
Yeah, that has a great story, you know, the irony of, you know, the sour defeat and, you know, it sounded like he took it hard, but then, you know, seeing his family and friends there to support him and then meeting his future wife. That's a spectacular ending to what started off not so good for him earlier in the day. So tremendous. So, how did it happen with Bronko after he graduated from Minnesota?
Chris Willis:
Well, he didn't actually graduate. So, he was still taking classes. But at the end of his senior season, he actually was invited to play in a prestigious all-star game that was just getting started on the West Coast. It's the old east-west shrine game that I believe was still around; you know, it bounced around on the West Coast and was mainly played in San Francisco. Well, at the time, this was starting to become one of the better, more key games, especially football games, so they invited seniors to play. And he made the Eastern team to play in that game, you know, and then Bob Tanner was another teammate of his, you know, also played in that game. So, so this is where he sort of gets the, you know, the itch to play pro ball, you know, he's like, OK, I think I can compete, I think, you know, I think I can play. So the east team actually practices for two or three days in Chicago first, before they go out to San Francisco, you know, well, at this time, this is January or end of December 1929. Well, of course, this is George Halas' territory. So Hallis, you know, lights that these this team are practicing there. So he gets, you know, the inside scoop, and he goes and sees the team practices. Obviously, he's very infatuated with Bronko, his running style, and his physicality. And he's like, so he talks to them, say, hey, if you're willing to play, like when you get back from the all-star game, let's talk and, you know, we'll talk salary or, you know, because I want you for the bears. So, you know, Bronkos intrigued, like, OK, you know, you know, I think there's a few other teams that are, you know, writing to them. But so he goes out and plays in San Francisco, and it turns out to be a really good game for him. He's probably the best player in the field, you know, even with Dutch Clark. Dutch Clark also played in that same game. So, so then when he comes back, obviously, you know, Hallis makes the big push. And, you know, Nagurski, you know, likes what he sees. And he ends up signing with the Bears.
Darin Hayes:
Yeah, interesting. You mentioned Dutch Clark; of course, if you look on Amazon and your publisher, you have a book out on Dutch Clark as well that you wrote a few years back. So just want to mention that, which is also very interesting. OK, so he eventually signs on with Halas and plays in a couple of really interesting games during his career. And maybe if you could just highlight a couple of those that, you know, I know we've talked about, but they're so interesting. He's an integral part of them.
Chris Willis:
Yeah, I mean, he's right at that pivotal point where, you know, the NFL, although it's the depression, the 1930s, his rookie year, you know, the NFL is starting to grow, they're starting to think, you know, we need to be in the big cities, and we need to be thinking as a business. So he comes along at the right time when the NFL is sort of on the rise. And some of these games are very important, you know, and even now, you know, you know, you know, 95 years late, like, these are some of the most important games in the NFL history. The first one was mainly in 1932 when the Bears and the Spartans tied. The Port Spartans are now the Detroit Lions, but they were a small-town team in Ohio at the time, and they tied for the title, or they tied for first place, but there's, you know, there's no championship game in the NFL, you know, it's a team with the best record. So they decide to play a playoff game, but then there's a snowstorm in Chicago the week of the game. And it's just a massive snowstorm. So they move the game indoors to Chicago Stadium, but it's a small field, you know, so Bronko plays, he actually throws the only touchdown, he throws a touchdown pass to Red Grange for the only touchdown, and the Bears win nine to nothing. But it opened the eyes of the NFL like, hey, we need to have hash marks, we need to throw from anywhere behind the line of scrimmage, which you had to be five yards behind the line of scrimmage; it was a rule at the time college football made these rules. So they're like, no, let's separate from college football. So Bronko was part of that game, and that sort of separated, and then they split the NFL into two divisions and created the NFL championship game, kind of like the World Series with the American and National League in 1933. So, the Bears win the Western division in that first championship season, and they play the Giants in Wrigley Field, and Bronko has another great game. He throws two jump pass touchdowns, including the game-winner in the last couple of minutes, and they win 23 -21. So, like I said, and then the next year, in 1934, they won the division again, they played in New York, and this was the famous sneaker game. He actually plays really well, but you know, the Giants put the sneakers on in the second half, and they actually won. So there's three consecutive years he plays in, like you said, three of the most important, uh, you know, games in the NFL history, the indoor game, the first NFL championship game, and then the sneaker game, uh, all in a row. And you know, so he's, uh, and there's more of that in the book, you know, but you know, these sorts of games and what went on and stuff. So, he definitely was a big part of the early history of the NFL.
Darin Hayes:
Yeah, and well, the first and the last of those teams you talked about had quite a bit of controversy surrounding him, too, where the team on the losing end wasn't so happy about a few things. But can you cover those in the book? And that's an interesting story, which is all to themselves. But he thought he ended up only playing had a short NFL career due to some circumstances that he had another career move. And maybe you could speak about that just a bit.
Chris Willis:
Sure. You know, I mean, he actually did play eight years or the first eight years of his career. So, it is actually a decent-sized career at the time. But in 1937, I mean, he was still playing really well in the NFL, but he had picked up professional wrestling a couple of years earlier. And, you know, although he had not known quite much about wrestling, but had a name, you know, he had the physicality, you know, he's a big guy that fit wrestling. And he didn't necessarily have the best, you know, the greatest personality, you know, he was a quiet guy and stuff. So maybe the flair of it, you know, he had to be taught a little bit more. But he became a very good championship wrestler, a caliber wrestler. He was making more money wrestling than he did with the Bears. You know, obviously, as I said, this was still the depression, and the house is still trying to manage, you know, the team, keep this team together, and try to pay him as much as he could. However, he was making more money than by 1937, the spring of 37. He's sort of at the top of the list of challengers for the heavyweight, you know, championship in wrestling. And he wins it in the summer of 37. And then if you're the if you're the actually the world championship wrestler of the world, you have a commitment to a schedule. So it's very unique. And like I said, the book goes into detail about this; I call it the double duty where the spring and summer he's wrestling all over the place, you know, you know, two or three times a week, he's defending this title, he's making, you know, a decent amount of money more than you would, you know, with the Bears, you know, like, you know, two or three times more than he would for the Bears. So he's keeping on the schedule. But, you know, his wrestling manager knew he wanted to play football in 37. So, in the fall of 37, he does something that I think is just so incredible. He's wrestling, sometimes during the week, and then he's playing football on Sundays. You know, he did that early in the season. And then he kind of scaled-down, you know, at the end of October or November, and then he just played football because that was the meat of the NFL schedule, and he housed one of the folks on football. But he's doing this double duty. And like I said, there were some times where he would wrestle, you know, on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, and travel back to Chicago on Saturday, and they play on Sunday, and then be back out on the road wrestling, you know, and so just a tremendous athletic event to be able to do both. And then unfortunately, as I said, after the 37 seasons, he decides, like, if the house can't meet his salary demands, which wasn't very much, I think he's making like, he's back up to 5000 a year, and he just wanted six or 7000. And house wanted to stay at, and he's just so I'm gonna go wrestle, and then he ended up his first retirement, he did come back in 1943 when the war was going on, but he had missed six years, and he just played tackle. He had some injuries, but he did help the Bears win a title in 43. During the war, but so those first eight years, and then that was his ninth year in 1943. But like I said, that 37 season was just a tremendous achievement.
Darin Hayes:
Those are some pretty demanding jobs when you're moonlighting as a football player, especially during the rough-and-tumble era that he played in. And you're also doing some pro wrestling, which is pretty physically grueling, too. And you're doing those multiple evenings a week. And wow, that's a pretty tremendous athlete. Did he suffer any injuries during that earlier time? I know you said in 43; he did when he came back.
Chris Willis:
Yeah, no, I mean, he had, I think in 35, a back injury that kept him out a lot. Like he had, obviously, when you're playing football and you're playing wrestling, you're going to come across things. And, and it did affect him a little bit later with some arthritis and some joint injuries, you know, later in his life. But I think it was more like that: just wear and tear your professional athlete, you're doing football, and you're doing wrestling, and you're going to have some bumps and bruises along the way.
Darin Hayes:
That's amazing to have the fortitude to be able to do that. I just can't imagine that. That's pretty tremendous. Well, Chris, we appreciate you coming on here and talking about Bronko. And maybe if you could again, maybe if you want to share some of your social media and again, let us know where folks can get the book and the title of the book again.
Chris Willis:
Sure. Yeah. I mean, it's Bronko, the legendary story of the NFL's greatest two-way fullback. You can get it on Amazon and Barnes and Noble, like I said, where Rowan and Littlefield are the publishers, so you can go to Rowan.com and pick it up there, too. And there are reviews and features on the publisher's website. So, if you want to check out a little bit more about the book, it's there. So, like I said, it's an entertaining story about a guy who, you know, like I said, has a big personality and a tremendous athletic career.
Darin Hayes:
Yeah. Folks, it is a fantastic book. Make sure you get a copy of it. And did you want to share your social media as well?
Chris Willis:
Yeah, it's CDWillis83 on Twitter, so there's more stuff on Bronko, you know, that post, and a lot about early NFL history, too. So
Darin Hayes:
Well, Chris Willis:, we appreciate you and appreciate everything you're doing during your day job too, as well as what you're doing here with these fantastic books and we're hoping you're going to write some more about this great era because you were, you have some great ones out so far. So folks, make sure you go to Amazon and just look up Chris Willis:'s name and you'll see the big rundown of all these great historical football books.
Chris Willis:
Oh, no, I appreciate it, Darin. And it's always nice to be on the show and talk a little football history.
Transcribed by Notta.AI
Goldsmith Sports Equipment 1935 Consulting Staff
This is the first of seven articles in a series covering the 1935-36 Fall & Winter GoldSmith Athletic Equipment catalog. Preceding each section of the catalog is a one-page cartoon about the history of that type of equipment, in today’s case, football pants. — www.footballarchaeology.com
The Football Archaeology of the Football Men Who Endorsed and helped Goldsmith Sporting Goods to make football equipment in 1935.
Helmets are probably the first piece of equipment we think of when someone asks us about football. The head covering may be the most recognizable element of the gridiron.
Timothy Brown, like many of us, is enamored by the evolution of the football helmet as a product and safety device. Tim collects football catalogs selling the equipment and then dives into the variations and innovations that were derived along the way.
In a recent post, 1935 GoldSmith Sports Equipment Consulting Staff, Tim delved into the 1935 Coaching Consultants and reps that GoldSmith had and then came on to share what he found with us on a podcast episode.
-Transcription of 1935 GoldSmith Sports Equipment Consulting Staff with Timothy Brown
Hello, my football friends, this is Darin Hayes of PigskinDispatch.com. Welcome once again to The Pig Pen, your portal to positive football history, and welcome to another Tuesday as we get to visit with our friend Timothy P. Brown of FootballArcheology.com. Tim, welcome back to The Pig Pen.
Thank you, sir. Look forward to chatting again, as always, and hopefully we'll have something interesting for people to listen to.
Yeah, you, Tim, you have some amazing things happening, you know, each and every day, and every once in a while you get some of these zingers that like, just like, I can't call it an earworm, I don't know what it is, it just, it stays with me all day when I read it. I read it in the evening and it stays with me through the night. I'm laying in bed thinking about it, wake up next morning, and one of those is, you keep going into the Goldsmith's catalog, and you had one that, you know, that you had back in September out as a tidbit that talks about some staff that Goldsmith's catalog got some information from, so maybe you could talk a little bit about that tonight.
Yeah, so, you know, so I guess, you know, first off, just, you know, by way of background, I have something on the order, you know, 30 or 40 vintage sporting goods catalogs, you know, so I collect them over time, or I've collected them over time, it's just a way to be able to look up, okay, well, you know, some of it's just images, you know, for the tidbits, but it's also just, you know, you can look at them and understand, okay, this is what this equipment was made of at the time, and how things changed and things that they created that disappeared because they didn't really work very well, or they were uncomfortable, you know, whatever it may have been. Anyways, I collect these catalogs, and most of them, I'm just, you know, I'm buying them online, and so I don't, typically, I'm only seeing like cover photographs, a couple of inside pages, but I don't know what, you know, it's not like, you know, it can be a 90 page catalog, but I'm only seeing images of a couple of them. Anyways, this was one of those, you know, I bought this, Goldsmith was a big brand at the time, and I didn't have a lot of Goldsmith catalogs, so I, you know, picked this one up.
And, you know, then once it was delivered, it was like, right away, okay, this is really cool, because in addition to just normal pages, showing the equipment, the pricing and everything for shoulder pads and helmets and whatever, each of the different major types of equipment, they had a lead in cartoon page that kind of told the history of that type of equipment, the history of football shoes, the history of helmets. And so, it was, number one, it's just kind of fun imagery, they're interesting cartoons. So, it was just a way to, you know, kind of go through those, and then, you know, what I've done, you know, it's a series of, there will be an eighth week now, but, you know, so it's just a way to publish, to do these, show these cartoons, and then just go through the equipment of the time.
And so, this is mid-30s, you know, so what was equipment like, you know, then. And so, this, the first of those cartoons was about what they called their consulting staff. And so, that was, you know, essentially, consulting staff was like, the coaches, and one trainer, who were their, like, their advisory staff, they were the guys who they would go to, to talk through, you know, what kinds of changes do we need for the equipment, or if they had a research and development group, they would show them, they'd show these coaches, hey, here's what we've come up with, what do you think about this? Can you have you guys wear this stuff in spring practice, or in regular practice, and see how it performs? You know, so they were, you know, obviously, these coaches were paid.
And in many cases, they, that, you know, the manufacturers would then, you know, just like your old baseball gloves, where it was like, the Mickey Mantle glove, or whatever, you know, there were, there were pants, and helmets, and footballs, that had the Newt Rockne name on it, or who met Pop Warner, and John Heisman, and, you know, so. Well, Tim, was, was Goldsmith, were they sort of in the Midwest? Is that what I'm getting a sense of? Or what part of the country were they centered out of? You know, a lot of the coaches that are on this advisory staff are Midwest guys. So, I kind of get a sense of that.
But, you know, there was a lot of Midwest, like D&M was out east, they were like a Massachusetts firm, but Spalding was Midwest, Reach, I believe, was Midwest, or a couple down in St. Louis. So, yeah, I don't have that catalog in front of me. But I could, you know, I could look, look it up.
And I can, you know, let you know, you know, kind of where they were based. Yeah, that's, that's what I was, Is there a reason you ask her? Well, I know that Spalding was out of Chicago, and it just seemed, you know, and it seems like, like you said, this, a lot of these coaches are Midwestern teams, Western Conference, Big Ten teams. And I just wondering, you know, if there was a reason why maybe, you know, distribution or something that they were in the center of the country because you really, you think about that area, you know, football starting in the east and moving west, you'd almost think the equipment would be more of an eastern-based, you know, industrial shipping out.
But just curious. Yeah, I think, well, my understanding is a lot of it was the stockyards in Chicago, you know, so there was access to leather. Okay, you know, so I mean, so much of the early equipment, yeah, so much of the early equipment was leather, that, you know, it made more sense to be where you could pick and choose and get high-grade leathers and yada, yada, yada.
So, yeah, I mean, it's funny, it's one of those things you wouldn't even think is, you know, there's no reason anymore, you know, to be near a source of leather.
Obviously, you know, baseball gloves are a different story. But otherwise, you know, most football equipment, there's no leather involved anymore.
And then the ball, you know, obviously, the balls were leather. So anyways, yeah, that's, that's why I love it, you know, started in the Midwest. That makes perfect sense.
Okay, thanks. Yeah, so, so then, you know, like these coaches were, you know, the folks that they had on at that point, so in 1935, they had a Hunk Anderson, who was at North Carolina State, but it just finished a tour at Notre Dame. So Midwest, then he had played at Notre Dame.
Noble Kizer was at Purdue. Fritz Crisler was at Princeton, but he had been at, he had played at Uof Chicago. He had coached Minnesota before going to Princeton.
And then obviously ended up at Michigan. Doc Spears had been all over. Well, he kind of he was a journeyman, he was actually a doctor, but a football coach, but he was at Wisconsin at the time.
And I can't remember if he had just gone there. I think he got fired after that, and then went out to Oregon, or it could have been the other way around. And then this guy, Frank Major Wandel, from Yale, who was, he was one of those interesting guys at the time, there were a lot of, it's kind of like, you know, there are these strength and conditioning coaches now who are, you know, kind of, they have their own brand, they're, they're nationally known, nationally recognized guys.
And, you know, back then, there were trainers like that, too. And he was one of them. So he'd been longtime trainer at West Point, and he ends up down at, I think it was LSU for a couple of years.
Then he ends up at Yale, which is where he was at at the time. So, so actually, the mix isn't that much Midwestern. But it's interesting, because the image that you have, and folks, if you've got to enjoy these images that Tim's talking about, we have link in the show notes, you can go to Tim's page and see some of these, he's talking about these cartoons.
But Major Wandel, you know, everybody else is sort of wearing like white knickers. And he's got like, I don't know if they're plaid knickers, or, but that's what jumps out of you on the page to me, is these knickers. And it's he's in the lower right hand corner of the page I'm looking at, but he must have been a character to have some like looks like he's golfing, maybe.
Yeah, I mean, he's one of those guys who just like came out of some gym in New Jersey, and ended up eventually hooking in with, he did some training, you know, during World War One, and then ends up at West Point for quite a while. But yeah, I mean, back then, trainers were function both. They handled both the kind of sports medicine side, you know, they weren't physicians.
But when we think about athletic training, we're thinking about, you know, hot baths, and cold baths, and, you know, taping guys, and, you know, some kind of contraption, you know, so it doesn't hurt, as well as strength and condition. So they were both at the time, and mostly conditioning, they didn't do as much strength work. But yeah, a lot of these guys were, you know, they're big on the whole, getting guys to roll on the ground to toughen them up.
Things that we now think are pretty absurd, but, you know, that was kind of core beliefs at the time. Yeah, I can remember back when I was playing when I was, like, I think the first year I played, maybe I was in fifth grade or something. I remember our coach, he was old school.
He was an older guy. And you'd have part of your calisthenics, you'd run in place, and then drop and make sure your stomach hits first, because that's going to toughen your gut up, you know, as everybody gets the wind knocked out of when you hit the ground, and you're gasping trying to get back up. But I picture that kind of training.
Yeah, that was the deal. But one of the things I thought was kind of cool, I can't remember, you know, which eater left this as a comment or a question, but, you know, I'm a Purdue fan. And, you know, there were a lot of schools back in the 30s that wore winged helmets, right? I mean, we now associated with just a select few schools.
But back then, it was very common. Nevertheless, you know, this guy made a comment that you know, back in the 30s, mid-30s, in particular, Purdue wore winged helmets, you know, so wing in front straps, you know, going back, kind of, you know, the Michigan, Delaware, Princeton style now. But she's like, so that's where you know because Noble was one of these advisory coaches.
And so I would bet if you look at images of the Purdue team from that era, there probably weren't some, some form of Goldsmith helmet, right? So as opposed to some competitive brand. So anyways, but for him, it was kind of a neat insight because it's like, so that's why they were those, those stupid. Now, with these coaches, sort of being on the board of directors, or the consultants of the now the day, is that, you know, their teams buy all their equipment from a Goldsmith, then is that was that's part of the deal of, you know, I've never really seen anything that goes into the details of those kinds of contracts.
I mean, I've read a few things about Knute Rockne because he was like, I mean if you think that there's somebody that, that is on every commercial nowadays, like, you know, save been, you know, down in Alabama's on a fair amount of stuff. But Rockne was, I mean, he was pitching, obviously, all kinds of athletic equipment. And then he pitched Ramblers or Studebakers, you know, one of those brands, he made coffee, he did all you know, stuff for Kelloggs, a lot of stuff for Kelloggs, and they had coffee at the time.
I just thought Barbasol was big on Barbasol. So he was from a Holmes and Travis Kelsey, eat your hearts out. Newt Rocky was first.
That's right. Major sponsor ambassador. Yeah.
Okay, so well, yes. Did the coach or did the teams buy that brand of equipment? And so I've never really, you know, I've never seen anything definitive. In that regard, and I have this kind of a storyline I've never checked into.
You know, I have read a number of things with Newt Rocky and his, you know, he, he promoted a lot of different kinds of consumer goods, but then also a lot of football equipment. So I mean, I have to believe that they, at minimum, they benefited from the, you know, they got discounts on the equipment, and in some cases, free stuff in order to test it, you know, it had to be that kind of thing going on. But, you know, the research I've done in the past about, you know, like when logos first came, you know, when logos became prominent in the 60s, really Adidas, you know, among track athletes that whole thing got going, and they were, you know, giving away equipment, paying athletes to wear their branded goods.
So that's really where that started. But there were probably, you know, less, you know, maybe a little bit less formal, you know, kinds of, you know, deals in the past, right? You know, yeah, I'm just picturing like a high school coach or athletic director saying, Hey, you know, Fritz Kreisler's endorsing this product, goldsmith, we better write our equipment there, because, you know, we're, we're Fritz Kreisler fans, or, you know, you know, Hunky Anderson fans, whatever, you know, they see they're endorsing it. And, you know, that's probably a lot of the attraction from for having them on the covers.
Yeah. And, you know, I'm sure they got that they got paid something just like, you know, the baseball gloves. And, you know, those athletes got things, and somehow they get money when their gloves are sold.
Right. So right. But, you know, the details of it, I don't understand, or, you know, really know anything about.
I wonder, I picture, you know because you have some great images of the helmets. I wonder maybe, you know, we can look back at some old photographs. Maybe I'll do that in some spare time here and look and see if you can tell a goldsmith helmet from, you know, a Spalding or some of the other manufacturers.
And maybe you can tell that way and say, Hey, you know, Purdue was wearing a goldsmith in 37 or. Yeah. And yeah.
Well, even in that article, I did do that. I couldn't find a good sharp image of the Princeton team from that era to see, well, what helmet they wore? Well, in fact, what I, the only thing I really found was a, it was a painting or an illustration from a year, you know, Princeton yearbook. And the helmets of Princeton players are wearing what we think of as a classic winged helmet.
It was. There's a helmet style. It kind of looks like, now I'm blanking on the term, but it's kind of like a three-leaf clover sort of design. It's, you know, so anyway, but, you know, and Goldsmith offered that helmet and, or that style of helmet, but I think others did as well.
So sometimes it's hard to tell like what brand, because, you know, people, you know, they, they wore, you know, they had similar designs, you know, different brands. Okay. Gotcha.
All right. So go ahead and continue. Yeah.
Well, I was mostly just gonna say, I'm not sure, you know, I'm just, I put together some notes in advance. And so I don't know that I had had anything else. I mean, other than just one of the things that's pretty remarkable, as in all the catalogs or in all the different products, is it like on helmets, you could go from, like, say, a $15 helmet down to like one that costs $2 and 35 cents.
So the, you know, they, they end up having these high end helmets, and then, then there's kind of moderately priced ones, and then there's pretty inexpensive helmets. And so you just gotta, you know, it's like now, every helmet has to meet a certain base at least, you know, performance level, you know, based on Noxi. But, you know, back then, it was like, well, no, we, this is a helmet, it's good.
You know, but there's no measurement standards or anything. It's just like you're taking somebody's word for it. Yeah, that leads into one of the questions I was gonna ask you because the the ad for the helmets that you have on this tidbit, you know, it has three examples of helmets that they were promoting.
And all of them say leather lined. Now, what would be the alternative to leather-lined in that era? Would it be like, you know, cloth or something? Or, you know? Yeah, I think the internals were either leather or felt for the most part. And so you'll, you'll also see things.
You pretty much have to look at the less expensive ones to get a handle on the alternatives. For example, moleskin was kind of a high-end material for pants. It was not as popular in the 1930s, but it was still a high-end material.
Canvas was a low-end material. And then there might be different kinds of twills and maybe duck and whatever. I don't even know what some of those things really are, that they're one form of cotton, you know, material or another, but then by the 30s, you were getting into, you know, silk, and a lot of times it's like airplane cloth, which is actually a form of silk.
So silk, and then I'm blanking on the kind of the really shiny material that satin, you'd see that satin, yeah, it's so you'd see satin on the front of you know, certain, certain teams pants. So yeah, I mean, some of it was once they got into some of the, the not-so-like silk, one of the real values of it was lighter, much more water repellent, you know, so it didn't soak up sweat and, you know, water in a rainy situation. So the players, you know, felt lighter, but it also silk is much easier to dye.
And you can do a much broader range of colors, whereas the duck and canvas pretty much always had earth tones, you know, one or tone or another. So everybody wore kind of the same look in pants until New York versus wearing purple pants. So, you know, I mean, it's, you think about it, that was a big deal.
Awesome. Somebody, hey, they're wearable pants. Right? Yeah, I was just trying to go when you were saying, you know, that from the $15 helmet down to the $2 and 35 cent helmet, I'm picturing, you know, hey, you know, varsity players, you get the $15 helmet with a leather lined and freshmen, you're going to get the burlap lined helmets, you know, uncomfortable.
Yeah, well, I'm sure that sure that was short, obviously, the freshmen who were wearing the stuff, those latest and greatest 10 years ago. Right. And the thing on some of that is, I was looking at, so I'm still writing, you know, writing one of these, and it there's, there's kind of like a flap in the back between kind of the ear hole area in the back.
It's got some kind of flexible extension, some kind of elastic band there. So there was that part of the sizing. If you look at the catalog, sometimes not a lot is said about helmet sizing.
And so, you know, I always had a big old water bucket head. So I needed a big helmet. I've got a younger brothers, you know, got a pinhead.
And, you know, so, but presumably, we would have been issued the same helmet. So, yeah, I'm sure they had some kind of size variations, but, you know, they don't talk about much of the catalog size variations. You had to stuff some straw or a rag in the back or something to make it stay on your head.
Tim, that's a fascinating stuff. And you've, you've got a lot of these goldsmiths that you've been coming out as you said, you had an eight-part series on it, but you have a lot of other interesting stuff coming out, you know, seven days a week. Maybe you could share with folks how they could get in touch with you to learn about your tidbits and read them each and every day.
Yeah. So, you know, so my preferring would be that it just visits the site and you subscribe. And, you know, that way, basically if you're subscribed, you can, you'll get the, you'll get the tidbit by email every night.
Cause I assume it's seven o'clock Eastern. If you, if you're a Substack reader, you can also just get it and follow me on Substack. And then, you know, you'll, you'll be able to get them every night.
Some people don't want the email, but there you go. They like getting it on Substack. I also, at least for now, tweet it every night.
And then I also posted on the application threads. So me on one of those, it's always Football Archaeology. You know, if you enter that, you'll find me.
And then it's kind of like happy reading. All right. Well, Timothy Brown, thank you.
Once again, footballarchaeology.com is the place to go and we appreciate you, sir. And we will talk to you again next Tuesday.
Very good.
Thank you. Thanks, Tim.
Transcribed by TurboScribe
